Some little bugs

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HerzAusGold
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Some little bugs

Post by HerzAusGold » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:43 pm

Here I want collect some little bugs or disadvantages.
With tapes or level sketches or movies or whatever.

Contributions:

>> In AbbyKing the player is to quick for controlling in the right way (I
>> dont eat the speed pills) - This happens in many old contributions...

> Yes. In early versions of R'n'D, the player was indeed faster than the
> enemies. Therefore, some old levels may only be solvable if the player > is faster, even when played with a newer version of the game. That's
> why the player ist faster than usually in old levels.

But this levels are unplayable! If you press once the player goes twice or more. Specially the first level. (and the exit is very near to the player and always open)

Any hint (setup or keystroke)?


DiamondField

>> In GlassicGames running down,left,up,down,... through a field of
>> diamonds sometimes kill the player.. never happen in real EM (Amiga).

In earlier version of RnD this was better! Holger changed this I think..


Other

(and some other little things I mentioned in the "off topic" area.
- but here I want to deliver a more exact description or tape)


--- Dont worry - I love this game - believe it ---
And the answer is ... 42 !

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Holger
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Post by Holger » Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:53 pm

> But this levels are unplayable! If you press once the player goes twice or
> more. Specially the first level.

Just tried that exact level and had no problems moving the player between ten and twenty times for exactly one step without moving more than one field. Maybe you just have a bad keyboard?

> In earlier version of RnD this was better!

In which way?

> Holger changed this I think..

No, I don't. And I just tested this with a big field of diamonds, moving left and right, up and down and diagonally without ever being killed.

What exactly do you think was better in earlier versions? Maybe we're talking about different things here... :-o

> --- Dont worry - I love this game - believe it ---

Hey, reporting bugs or criticising strange behaviour or mentioning game design flaws is perfectly OK! I need this feedback to make the game better! It's just that I should be able to reproduce these things, else I can't change them... :-)

HerzAusGold
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Post by HerzAusGold » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:37 pm

Maybe you just have a bad keyboard?
Holger! If I have a bad keyboard - I say I have a bad keyboard.To easy excusement.
I have this tested with several computers with Rnd3.1.2.
May be you have a special setup.conf file ?
Dont know how i can show you the trouble - I think a tape dont help.
> Holger changed this I think..
Hm, I thougth YOU have mentioned this here everywhere in the forum.
(first I thougth in the contributions 2004/2005 bug topic, but I dont found them) - May be from an other person.
*edit*
Found it now: topic "running through explosions" from Martijn.
Last edited by HerzAusGold on Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And the answer is ... 42 !

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Holger
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Post by Holger » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:04 pm

Ah, now I see where I already answered this post! :-)

> Holger! If I have a bad keyboard - I say I have a bad keyboard.

Sorry then. :-)

I just had no better idea here. :-o

There are just *too* many keyboards that *really* suck today. :-(

(For myself, I have bunkered away some old keyboards that suck less, mainly from Cherry, Compaq and Sun -- hope they will still last a few years...)

> I have this tested with several computers with Rnd3.1.2.

Hmm...

> May be you have a special setup.conf file ?

Yes! But I won't tell you... Just kidding! =:-) No, nothing special over there... :)

> Dont know how i can show you the trouble - I think a tape dont help.

Well, probably not -- I think I know how it goes when not being able to make single steps (which is easy with double player speed if you don't have a very precise keyboard). The other way round, showing you a tape with single steps will probably also not help or make you happier... ;-) :-/

But we could check all these old levels, and see if they maybe are perfectly solvable even with normal speed. (As said, this is just some sort of workaround for levels for old R'n'D versions, where the player was approximately 1.5 times faster than enemies...)

If somebody sends me the tapes for old sets changed to normal speed, I think there should be no problem to change this again.

> Hm, I thougth YOU have mentioned this here everywhere in the forum.

May be possible, yes. Don't remember this anymore... :-/

Could be checked with earlier versions against later versions, though.

But as you said that the current version is better in this respect than earlier versions, this shouldn't be too big of a concern anymore...

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Zomis
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Re: Some little bugs

Post by Zomis » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:07 am

HerzAusGold wrote:But this levels are unplayable! If you press once the player goes twice or more. Specially the first level. (and the exit is very near to the player and always open)
Just a little idea I had... maybe this is because of some settings within your OS?

Or maybe it depends on how you press the buttons? For example, when I'm walking a straight path going left with only Supaplex buggy bases, I have the down-key pressed all the time and only press the left key a little when I see that the next buggy base is OK to walk on. Then I release the left key and still have the down-key pressed.

I don't know if this matters much, but it was just an idea.

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Francesco
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Post by Francesco » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:03 pm

Some days ago, I was about to post a bug report, about being killed while walking inside a big field of gems.

I thought I read something about this bug, but then I've noticed a thing: I was being killed by the time! It happened in a level I was creating, during a test, having forgot to set the time to infinite.

Could this "trap" be the reason for some unreplicable bug where the player gets killed with no apparent reason?

Just a thought that crossed my mind, but I'm pretty sure that it's not the case, anyway...
Anyway, by the way, have fun!
Francesco

HerzAusGold
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Post by HerzAusGold » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:21 am

gems
No I think this have something to do with the mentioned bug fix, see topic
"running through explosions" from Martijn.

to quick:
And Holger, I edit my source - setting "double speed" to zero.
Then I can control the player well.
And the answer is ... 42 !

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Holger
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Post by Holger » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:34 pm

[being killed in field of diamonds]
> No I think this have something to do with the mentioned bug fix, see topic
> "running through explosions" from Martijn.

I don't know why I haven't thought of this before, but could you please provide a test level and test tape with this problem? (In contrast to the "double speed" problem, this problem can perfectly be analyzed by a test tape, I think!)

> And Holger, I edit my source - setting "double speed" to zero.
> Then I can control the player well.

For those using the unmodified original version: This can also be set in the level editor (player settings), but you have to do it for each affected level, of course...

HerzAusGold
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Post by HerzAusGold » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:33 pm

Upload a tape (with level) - is from ace_mine_1 level 7

http://www.zomis.net/rnd/download.php?id=449

About the place I died - I cant run left! after a while the player make the
step and are killed by a emerald.
I think in original you can run left here.
And the answer is ... 42 !

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Holger
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Post by Holger » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:04 am

> About the place I died - I cant run left! after a while the player make the
> step and are killed by a emerald.

OK, I've just checked this case. It's a bit tricky, as I must admit. :-)

It's indeed intended behaviour -- you cannot run into elements that are just moving (that's why you cannot run left while the emerald is falling). Normally you would now be able to run left (and survive) -- but this is a very old level, and at the time it was created, the game engine had a bug that caused the player waiting for some unneeded frames in this exact situation. This bug is fixed for many years, but (as many other old bugs), it has to be emulated to keep old levels and tapes from being broken.

When you are finally able to move, you just arrive at the wrong time and are smashed by the falling emerald above.

> I think in original you can run left here.

Probably yes -- as the original (EM) engine has synchronised element movement (including the player), this situation can never happen.

With the new version 3.2.0 and the new EMC level collection (including Ace Mine 1), this bug won't happen anymore for these levels. (But may unfortunately still happen for existing levels in the "Contributions" package.)

(In fact, unlike many other fixed bugs, it would probably be possible to emulate this bug only for old tapes, but not levels. as it is unlikely that old levels will be unsolvable when playing them with the bugfix. But it's always dangerous to use different engine behaviour for playing levels and playing tapes, so currently all old bugs are emulated for those levels that were created with them.)

HerzAusGold
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Post by HerzAusGold » Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:44 pm

This bug is fixed for many years, but (as many other old bugs), it has to be emulated to keep old levels and tapes from being broken.
AH. The old level and the old tapes are broken issue. Nice to know!

So what can I do to play levels with the newest RND engine?
Setting version in level? Or in levelinfo.conf?
Modify the source on which place?

A option "Play level(s) with newest engine WITHOUT old bugs" were nice!!

I think this issue is mentioned in some other topics from time to time.

Bugs should never be emulated to keep tapes "not" broken.
The level should solvable with the newest engine (and without "double speed") - If not i think change the level is necessary.

Ok may be I am wrong here. But a general option should be included!
And the answer is ... 42 !

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Holger
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Post by Holger » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:47 pm

> AH. The old level and the old tapes are broken issue. Nice to know!

Yeah... Sad story... ;-)

> So what can I do to play levels with the newest RND engine?
> Setting version in level? Or in levelinfo.conf?
> Modify the source on which place?

No need to patch the source. There are several ways to do what you want.

(1) You can just open and save the level with the level editor -- it will then get the latest engine version number, and will therefore be played with the latest version of the game engine with all bug-fixes up to date. (Existing old tapes for this level will *still* be played with the old version, btw.)

> A option "Play level(s) with newest engine WITHOUT old bugs" were nice!!

(2) Or add the following line to the "levelinfo.conf" fine (which will then be valid recursively for all level sets below this directory):

latest_engine: true

BTW: Have a look at the "levelinfo.conf" file of the "Classic_Games" level collection -- it has exactly this flag set!

> Bugs should never be emulated to keep tapes "not" broken.

So you prefer broken levels and broken tapes? Remember that there are quite some levels which *rely* on certain element behaviour which was later considered to be a bug. If you fix bugs and ignore downward compatibility, you can throw away a lot of existing levels. Sometimes the difference of bugfixing is even invisible when playing (timing issues, for example), but will cause a perfectly solvable level into something that is technically unsolvable. Bad idea, if you ask me! :-o

> The level should solvable with the newest engine (and without "double
> speed") - If not i think change the level is necessary.

Yes! Of course! So if you have the time, feel free to save those levels which are affected to the latest version and re-record the corresponding solution tapes! I'm not joking! I would happily update the "Contributions" (or other affected level sets) with your corrections! This would improve the quality of levels! But it has to be done, of course. (In contrast, making solvable levels unsolvable with new versions is no solution in my opinion.)

> Ok may be I am wrong here. But a general option should be included!

No, you are right of course. The reason why this option mentioned above is only used for the "Classic Games" is simply that most bugfixing is done to get closer to the original behaviour. So things can only get better for these levels with each new version. But for player contributed levels this is not true. That's why it's only activated for the Classics.

For native levels (like the 1000s of EMC levels), this issue will be finally solved with the integration of the new, native game engines. For the existing contributed player levels (like BD2K3 or Snake Bite), the top priority is keeping these levels playable as they were designed by their creators -- including bugs that may have existed in the game engine at that time.

HerzAusGold
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Post by HerzAusGold » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:36 am

But it's look sometimes so - that the "player" have to remember all the "quirks" in that (old) version, to solve the level.
And this is really bad.

May be a list should available - what trick can be used in which version.

And the "emulated" version should displayed (in the main menu).

Holger, can you run a test - which levels are brocken -
using the latest engine (and without dopplespeed) - so somebody can really try to solve this level with the newest engine.
And the answer is ... 42 !

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Holger
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Post by Holger » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:44 am

> But it's look sometimes so - that the "player" have to remember all the
> "quirks" in that (old) version, to solve the level.
> And this is really bad.

I have to agree here. :-/

> May be a list should available - what trick can be used in which version.

I have also thought about this. Maybe the following idea could partly solve this problem, or at least help a bit: As you might know, if you put a file "readme.txt" into the level directory, it can be displayed in the info screen menu. This is probably a good place for such information (for those levels which really use bugs as "tricks" -- example: Emanuel Schmieg's levels which use an old bug where you can leave a tube when placing dynamite inside of them). Maybe it's also worth to add its own file for such cases (like "tricks.txt"). This could even be provided directly from the main menu: If there's a file "tricks.txt", display a special icon next to the level preview to click at for reading this note. (Could also be done for the "readme.txt", which also exist only for some level sets.)

> And the "emulated" version should displayed (in the main menu).

At least it should be easily accessible, yes.

I think the best place would also be the info screen, with a sub-menu "version information". Maybe also a setup switch to display it next to the level preview on the main menu screen. (Would also be nice for debugging and for level developers/maintainers.)

> Holger, can you run a test - which levels are brocken -
> using the latest engine (and without dopplespeed) - so somebody can
> really try to solve this level with the newest engine.

Yes, I can do this, and indeed this is probably really the best idea for solving that issue.

I will run this test with the current stable 3.1.2, and also with the latest working version of 3.2.0. I will then open a new topic with those levels which should be fixed, together with instructions on how to do this (mainly saving the level with the latest version from the editor).

I could even create this list only for specific bugs (like that dynamite-tube bug described above, or the "player cannot walk" bug that you discovered), so one could start with the most nasty bugs.

Another big advantage would be that I could throw away the compatibility code for such bugs, which currently make the engine code slower and uglier...

HerzAusGold
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Post by HerzAusGold » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:37 pm

I could even create this list only for specific bugs (like that dynamite-tube bug described above, or the "player cannot walk" bug that you discovered), so one could start with the most nasty bugs.
So provide the list (list's) with this information - the tester can take care of it.
And the answer is ... 42 !

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