Rocks'n'Diamonds

Please use this thread to report bugs in the pre-release 3.2.0-8!

Great! Now we won't have to wait long for the real 3.2.0 anymore!

Okay, here are the first things I noticed:

1. Please change the sort priority of the EMC levels to 'Emerald Mine' (I don't know which code it was again. 500 maybe?). I know, it has nothing to do with 3.2.0-8 in particular, but something to be reported anyway.

2. I don't see a title screen... and while the black screen is shown, you hear the info screen music! can't you change this to the emerald mine title screen music (or better: the title screen music of the levelset which you are viewing the title screen of)? Or otherwise just no sound, but not that tomtom jungle sound, it doesn't fit while such a screen is shown! I assiociate such screens with chiptunes!

3. The EMC levels still have the standard RnD music playing, while they originally didn't have any background music. I think it would be better to turn this standardly off. And if anyone wants background music, he can always override it with the classic music or with something else. This is a matter of being as accurate as possible, which means turning off the background music!

I will hunt for more remarks.

[edit]

4. The game loading issue has not been fixed yet. When I save the game (at least, I've tested it in E.M.C. Mine 3) and load it, the player mode changes from one player to two players and the player is not placed on the saving point, but at the beginning of the level again.

I installed/extracted RnD in this order to the same folder:
v3.1.2
v3.2.0rc6
v3.2.0rc7
v3.2.0rc8

Now I have this problem:
When I start RnD or switch applications (set focus) from RnD and back, my whole system (WinXP SP2) freezes each time for about 5 seconds like 100% cpuload, then everything (and RnD) runs smooth.

Edit: Freezing happened only on my notebook, now it seems to be gone ... I'll observe it ...

5. I tried to put a Yam Yam in the classic Emerald Mine levelset in on of the levels. Then I tested it and a question mark appeared. The yam yams further down (with four in a row) in the level editor work, but the first one you come across when scrolling down, doesn't work.

I tried to play these "E.M.C. Mine 3" testlevels (no gfx) with RnD v3.2.0rc8 in network mode with 2 players:

- if you select your player colour on the client before the host selected its player colour, the client will quit
- you have to set "Team-Mode (Multi-Player)" on in setup, even if you started RnD with -n argument
- loading ingame tapes (F1, F2) doesn't work, the game switches somehow to single player mode ...
- Yamyams are invisible in level creator (e.g. level 000), you have to press Ctrl and move the mouse over, to find them
- I can't solve level 000 with 2 players, because I need to spread the lightblue and yellow keys on both players, but then I can't reach the blue and gray keys (level design issue I think)
- in level 003 I can't run with both players to the right, the falling rocks are always faster than the 2nd player; is this a level design or emerald mine engine issue?

Edit:
I continued playing the E.M.C. Mine 3 levels and I wonder more and more, if these levels were really designed for two players and ever solved with both.
- e.g. level 009: each player needs all 8 different keys, but all keys are unique in this level. Was there an option in Emerald Mine, that one key worked for both players? In other levels instead, like level 011, there are two keys of each colour ...

Summary for E.M.C. Mine 3 (2 players, network mode, emerald mine engine):
solved: 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 22, 23, 26, 28, 29, 30, 33, 34, 36, 38, 39, 44, 45, 47, 50, 51, 52, 53, 55, 57, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 73, 74, 78
only 1 exit, but solvable: 32, 37
not enough keys: 0, 9, 19, 25, 31, 35, 40, 43, 46, 49, 56, 58, 72, 77
2nd player too slow following 1st player: 3, 8?, 76
no start position for 2nd player: 18, 20, 21, 24, 42, 48, 54, 59, 64, 75, 79, 80
skipped (we'll try again when load/save works ): 6, 8, 27, 41, 60, 71


We're playing via internet (ping ~ 80 ms) and the network mode is rather slow. It would be fantastic, if this could be improved, but I absolutely understand, that this is very difficult or maybe impossible. And of course, a proper game engine and accurate timing is far more important.
Switching view mode (F5, F6) doesn't work in network mode, don't know if this is intended, but it would be useful, e.g. if one player died and the other one continues exploring an unknown level ...
I can imagine, that the network mode must be very hard to code, but we love it!
We definitely appreciate any improvement, you're doing a great job, Holger

Jannik wrote:- if you select your player colour on the client before the host selected its player colour, the client will quit

This is because the host is not listening for clients before the host picks a player. I think this should be fixed

Jannik wrote:- you have to set "Team-Mode (Multi-Player)" on in setup, even if you startet RnD with -n argument

It wasn't that way back in 3.1

Jannik wrote:- loading ingame tapes (F1, F2) doesn't work, the game switches somehow to single player mode ...

This is because the tape was only saved on one computer; the other computer does not have the tape.
This could be fixed if:

1. The "save tape" and "load tape" options could be sent to other computers, which they currently are not.
   However, then the computers would have to be sure to either load the tape at the same speed or wait for all of the computers to finish loading.
   OR
2. One person at one computer could save and load the tapes, and as the tapes are loaded, the moves of the players are sent to all of the other computers.

Some strange behaviour of the Rocks'n'Diamonds engine:



works



works not

Both work not with Emerald Mine engine.

Is that the way it should be

Some notes on some bugs -- more on the remaining bugs later!

> 2. I don't see a title screen... and while the black screen is shown, you
> hear the info screen music! can't you change this to the emerald mine
> title screen music (or better: the title screen music of the levelset which
> you are viewing the title screen of)?

Yep...!

> Or otherwise just no sound, but not
> that tomtom jungle sound, it doesn't fit while such a screen is shown!
> I assiociate such screens with chiptunes!

Absolutely right -- this is apparently still very buggy (as with most new things). I've hopefully fixed all this today. If there is no title screen (as in your case), there should be no black screen, but an info screen "no title screen", and in this case the usual info screen "music" should be fine.

If there *is* a title screen, it will be shown and the corresponding music will be played. It will also be shown/played when that set is selected, and when R'n'D starts with this set (finally!). Just try to define a title screen, like this:
(You can add up to five title screens.)

I will also provide an updated demo archive with example level sets.

> 3. The EMC levels still have the standard RnD music playing, while they
> originally didn't have any background music. I think it would be better to
> turn this standardly off.

Absolutely!

> And if anyone wants background music, he can
> always override it with the classic music or with something else. This is a
> matter of being as accurate as possible, which means turning off the
> background music!

I totally agree here. This is not a program bug, but just an incomplete conversion -- the music just has to be defined as being empty in those sets. The updated demo/example archive (and the final EMC level collection) will have this fixed, too.

> 5. I tried to put a Yam Yam in the classic Emerald Mine levelset in on of
> the levels. Then I tested it and a question mark appeared. The yam yams
> further down (with four in a row) in the level editor work, but the first one
> you come across when scrolling down, doesn't work.

Yes, this looks strange, but is "correct" (intended) behaviour.

The reason for this is that there are five types of initial yam yams in the R'n'D engine: yam yams starting to move left, right, up, down and in random direction. The classic EM/EMC engine only knows of the first four yam yam types, but has no "initially start in random direction" style yam yam.

I'm still thinking about what to do to make this more clear -- probably it's worth adding some options to display only certain elements, like "[x] only show valid EMC elements" etc. ... :-/

My experience from playing several E.M.C. Mine 3 testlevels is, that many levels are not designed for two players and are impossible to solve. I think it's not good, if multiplayer levels and single player levels are randomly mixed in a levelset.

My suggestion:
You could save the maximum (and maybe the minimum?) number of players in the level file, or let RnD interpret the number of start positions as this number (then the start positions for 2nd player need to be removed from the single player levels).

If the maximum number of players is smaller than current players in network mode ->

Multiplayer Compatible Mode:
- all players start at the same position (currently it looks like this, but the 2nd player can not move)
- one collected key works for all players
- entering exit doesn't destroy it

Then most of the levels should be playable with 2 players.
(I can hear you scream: oh no, not again another compatibility flag and different engine behaviour ...
but I believe in you and I'm sure, one day RnD will be compatible enough to be played by 3-fingered Marsians in 5-dimensional levels ... )



Any comments about my other questions, Holger?
What about the strange behaviour in my last post in this thread? Bug? Intended? To be investigated? (just curious )
Any progress with the ingame save/load function for network mode? (would be a big help )
Can you imagine to introduce view modes for network mode, too? (would be great )
Do you think you can improve the speed of internet network mode? (would give you the best chance to enter my personal hall of godlike idols )

Sorry for asking these questions again, I'm sure you will answer as soon as possible, just wanted to ensure that you know, how important these topics are for me and my fellow player!

Sorry, I'll write some answers as soon as possible...

Sorry Holger, but I've also found a bug

I edit level number 3
Custom Element 1:
named "yo! mtv raps!" (don't ask why I picked that name Just for testing purposes)
use graphic of closed gate
can move all dirs
can dig sand
Now I click "copy element", I change level number to number 4 (which is an exact copy of level 3, except that it doesn't have a CE)
I paste element
CE1 is now named "group element 32" (but it's still a CE) and no settings seems to have been copied...

Except the name in the CUSX chunk for "group element 32", there's just this: "09010100"
While the original chunk was:

> 1. Please change the sort priority of the EMC levels to 'Emerald Mine'
> (I don't know which code it was again. 500 maybe?). I know, it has nothing
> to do with 3.2.0-8 in particular, but something to be reported anyway.

Jup, it's 500. Do the EMC test level sets have a different sort priority?

Should be 500 when all is done...

> 4. The game loading issue has not been fixed yet. When I save the game
> (at least, I've tested it in E.M.C. Mine 3) and load it, the player mode
> changes from one player to two players and the player is not placed on
> the saving point, but at the beginning of the level again.

Hmm, wasn't able to reproduce this so far. Saving and loading level tapes with the F1 and F2 keys using the EMC engine works just fine for me. Any further information how to trigger this with 3.2.0-8?

> - loading ingame tapes (F1, F2) doesn't work, the game switches
> somehow to single player mode ...

Very strange! Sounds like the tape loading switches from one player to two players for Martijn, and from two players to one player for Jannik! :-o :-o

> - Yamyams are invisible in level creator (e.g. level 000), you have to
> press Ctrl and move the mouse over, to find them

Hmm, this doesn't seem to happen with my current version of that level set -- maybe I did something so that this is fixed now... :-/

> - I can't solve level 000 with 2 players, because I need to spread the
> lightblue and yellow keys on both players, but then I can't reach the blue
> and gray keys (level design issue I think)

Probably yes... Have you tried this with the original ADF and an Amiga emulator, just by chance?

> - in level 003 I can't run with both players to the right, the falling rocks are
> always faster than the 2nd player; is this a level design or emerald mine
> engine issue?

Very good question -- this level (or the whole set) seems to be impossible to solve using two players. Both the EMC engine in R'n'D as the original EM engine (and also the R'n'D engine) do not allow two players to move without an empty tile between them (just checked this with original Emerald Mine)! So this level is definitely impossible when played with two players (unless somebody can show the opposite).

> I continued playing the E.M.C. Mine 3 levels and I wonder more and more,
> if these levels were really designed for two players and ever solved with
> both.

I think they are designed for only one player. Unfortunately, I haven't found a way yet to tell if an EMC level (set) is suited also for two players or only for one player. This set seems to be designed for only one player.

> Was there an option in Emerald Mine, that one key worked for both
> players?

Not that I know of! :-o

> In other levels instead, like level 011, there are two keys of each colour ...

Maybe this has something to do with the strange way the original EM handled single and multi player levels: Only every n'th level was suited for multi player games, and if you selected "teamwork", only these levels were offered (if I remember correctly). So we usually have a mixture of single player levels and single/multi player levels in one set. (This was fixed in a very late version on the EMC engine, but I assume there are hundreds of EMC sets out there with this problem).

> We're playing via internet (ping ~ 80 ms) and the network mode is rather
> slow.

Yeah, I know... :-(

> It would be fantastic, if this could be improved, but I absolutely
> understand, that this is very difficult or maybe impossible.

Currently I'm convinced that this is not possible with the (asynchronous) R'n'D engine, but it may be possible with the (synchronous) EMC engine! I may have a look if it's easily possible to synchronize the EMC network game every 8th frame instead of every frame -- in theory, this should be easily possible, even though it may make the player less responsive. This is something which should be tested then... (Players used to the R'n'D timings already "feel" that the EMC game engine is less responsive when compared to the R'n'D engine: If you press a cursor key, it may take 8/50 s for the player to move, compared to 1/50 s for the R'n'D engine. But this *may* be an advantage for network games. I have to try...)

> And of course, a proper game engine and accurate timing is far more
> important.

Yup... For this kind of games, "fuzzy" player input timing absolutely does not work, unfortunately... :-/

> Switching view mode (F5, F6) doesn't work in network mode, don't know if
> this is intended,

Yup, it is... Should only be needed for local multi player levels (at least I thought so), where it may be impossible to see all players when they move around... Maybe it's also useful in network mode.

> but it would be useful, e.g. if one player died and the other one continues
> exploring an unknown level ...

Good point. That way, the "dead" player can at least look that the other's still doing.

> I can imagine, that the network mode must be very hard to code, but we
> love it!

I'm happy to hear this! :-)

(And yes, it's indeed a bit tricky and seems to be error-prone...)

> We definitely appreciate any improvement

I'll try to have another look at the network thing after 3.2.0 -- maybe it's possible to improve it for better response times in non-local networks.

> > - loading ingame tapes (F1, F2) doesn't work, the game switches
> > somehow to single player mode ...
> This is because the tape was only saved on one computer; the other
> computer does not have the tape.
[...]
> Any progress with the ingame save/load function for network mode?

Ahhh... So you really did mean loading/saving while in multi-player network mode? Indeed, this does not work in the current version. You should be able to do this in local multi-player games, though.

Daniel H. is perfectly right how this could be solved in the future...

[players moving under a rock]
> Some strange behaviour of the Rocks'n'Diamonds engine:
[...]
> Is that the way it should be

Probably not. Looks like a bug (or at least could be seen as a bug). Does this behave the same in 3.1.2 and 3.2.0-x? Should probably be fixed...

[Multiplayer Compatible Mode]
> Then most of the levels should be playable with 2 players.

These are good ideas and good suggestions! Maybe something like that will be possible one day. (Although this wouldn't fix the problem with E.M.C. 3, level 003, where the left player cannot reach the right side -- changing this behaviour would then again affect many other levels. But it could be added as a "last resort" option for sets/levels not designed for multi-player games...)

> Sorry Holger, but I've also found a bug
[...]

Zomis, please stand by -- so far, I only was able to exactly reproduce this bug, but I haven't investigated this further yet...

> - Yamyams are invisible in level creator (e.g. level 000), you have to
> press Ctrl and move the mouse over, to find them

Hmm, this doesn't seem to happen with my current version of that level set -- maybe I did something so that this is fixed now... :-/

You have to release a new version to prove that!

> - I can't solve level 000 with 2 players, because I need to spread the
> lightblue and yellow keys on both players, but then I can't reach the blue
> and gray keys (level design issue I think)

Probably yes... Have you tried this with the original ADF and an Amiga emulator, just by chance?

No, I don't have an ADF with the EMC Mine 3 levelset. And there are many levels with key problems ...

Ace Mine 3 seems to be a collection of several little levelsets from several authors, because the style, degree of difficulty and multiplayer compatibility often changes.
I think, some of these authors just were not concerned about multiplayer capability or didn't have the opportunity to test their levels with two players.
This will happen for many converted EMC levelsets and I assume, that you want to keep them in the original form and not edit them.
So even if you don't (yet) invent a "Multiplayer Compatible Mode", an information about the number of possible players in the level file would be a great help (maybe in the info screen of the editor, like width and height, just min and max players). And this data could be adjusted in the old levelsets step by step according to the feedback of players.
And if you try to play a level with the wrong number of players, RnD displays a warning message, so that the users can immediately skip it and won't get annoyed ...

> Switching view mode (F5, F6) doesn't work in network mode, don't know if
> this is intended,

Yup, it is... Should only be needed for local multi player levels (at least I thought so), where it may be impossible to see all players when they move around... Maybe it's also useful in network mode.

> but it would be useful, e.g. if one player died and the other one continues
> exploring an unknown level ...

Good point. That way, the "dead" player can at least look that the other's still doing.

Or maybe if there's a nut puzzle that can only be reached by one player, the second one could have a look and give some hints via TeamSpeak ...
Just wanted to let you know from my experience with the testlevels, that view modes in network mode could indeed be very helpful.
So you can just remove the additional code that disabled them for network mode ...

> > - loading ingame tapes (F1, F2) doesn't work, the game switches
> > somehow to single player mode ...
> This is because the tape was only saved on one computer; the other
> computer does not have the tape.
[...]
> Any progress with the ingame save/load function for network mode?

Ahhh... So you really did mean loading/saving while in multi-player network mode? Indeed, this does not work in the current version. You should be able to do this in local multi-player games, though.

Daniel H. is perfectly right how this could be solved in the future...

I hope this future is not so far away ...
Soon we are at level 80 of the testlevels and I'm scared to fight the skipped levels without a load/save function ...

[players moving under a rock]
> Some strange behaviour of the Rocks'n'Diamonds engine:
[...]
> Is that the way it should be

Probably not. Looks like a bug (or at least could be seen as a bug). Does this behave the same in 3.1.2 and 3.2.0-x? Should probably be fixed...

It's the same for v3.1.2 and v3.2.0rc8.
And I just recognized a little graphic flaw: if both players run the same way together (without an empty tile between), the yellow player is flickering.

>>> - Yamyams are invisible in level creator (e.g. level 000), you have to
>>> press Ctrl and move the mouse over, to find them
>> Hmm, this doesn't seem to happen with my current version of that level
>> set -- maybe I did something so that this is fixed now... :-/
> You have to release a new version to prove that!

Just checked this with plain 3.2.0-8 and was able to see all yamyams in EMC Mine 3, level 000 -- maybe this is a problem with the artwork set of that EMC demo level set which was fixed recently. (Try overriding the graphics with the classic graphics and the yamyams should be visible. If not, there's indeed a problem.)

> No, I don't have an ADF with the Ace Mine 3 levelset.

(I assume you mean "EMC Mine 3" here...)

[Problems with mixed single and multi player levels.]
> This will happen for many converted EMC levelsets and I assume, that
> you want to keep them in the original form and not edit them.

Yep, right...

> So even if you don't (yet) invent a "Multiplayer Compatible Mode", an
> information about the number of possible players in the level file would
> be a great help (maybe in the info screen of the editor, like width and
> height, just min and max players). And this data could be adjusted in the
> old levelsets step by step according to the feedback of players.

Yup, that's exactly how it should be done. I think the best place is an entry in the file "levelinfo.conf". I don't think that this should be put into the level editor -- a level with, for example, three players in it should be a strong indication that this level is playable with three players. (This is apparently not the case with the levels of EMC Mine 3, so the best place to note this seems to be a level set wide entry in "levelinfo.conf".)

With this additional info, single and multi player sets could easily be indicated in the game when selecting a level set...

> And if you try to play a level with the wrong number of players, RnD
> displays a warning message, so that the users can immediately skip it
> and won't get annoyed ... Cool

Yep! Best solution...

[player focus in network games]
> So you can just remove the additional code that disabled them for
> network mode ... Mr. Green

Yeah, I'll see what I can do... :-)

>> Daniel H. is perfectly right how this could be solved in the future...
> I hope this future is not so far away ... Rolling Eyes

Well... It's not *that* easy to implement. It won't be in 3.2.0. Sorry! :-|

> And I just recognized a little graphic flaw: if both players run the same
> way together (without an empty tile between), the yellow player is
> flickering.

Oops! This is *really* a nasty bug I never noticed! It's a bit harder to fix; I will to see how I can do this... :-o

>> Sorry Holger, but I've also found a bug
> [...]
> Zomis, please stand by -- so far, I only was able to exactly reproduce this
> bug, but I haven't investigated this further yet...

Simple, but nasty bug! Should be fixed now...

About invisible Yamyams:
I used the
EMC Mine 3 (No Gfx) levelset,
Setup, Custom Artwork, Custom Graphics = Classic Graphics
Setup, Custom Artwork, Override Level Graphics = Yes
but the Yamyams are still invisible in the level creator.
Maybe it's because of the way, I installed it (v3.1.2 -> v3.2.0rc6 -> v3.2.0rc7 -> v3.2.0rc8) ?
I'll check it again with v3.2.0final ...

> No, I don't have an ADF with the Ace Mine 3 levelset.
(I assume you mean "EMC Mine 3" here...)

Sure ...


About the number of players (I'll describe it like this: [minimum number of players/maximum number of players] ) in levelinfo.conf:
I think that's a bad idea, because many levelsets are mixed.

Let's just take the classic Emerald Mine levelset: level 0-80 are [1/2], but some of 81-101 are [2/2]. How would you advertise this levelset in levelinfo.conf? [2/2]? Then many solo players would miss levels 0-80 ...

Or what about EMC Mine 3? [1/1]?
In level 15 the 2nd player has to do at least one step. Ok, possible with [1/1] if you know the right keys ...
But what about level 56? The yellow player will never reach the exit, and that's IMO the only way to really solve (and save tape) an Emerald Mine engine level ...
And by the way, more than 50% of this levelsets are solvable (and really funny) with 2 players, it would be a shame to set this levelset to [1/1].

So if you definitely don't want to add this raw information to the level file (and editable in level creator), I would recommend to remove the second player in the [1/1] EMC levels and take the number of start positions as [min/max]. But then you have no indication for [2/2] ...

Well... It's not *that* easy to implement. It won't be in 3.2.0. Sorry!

*sniff*
So I will stop reporting bugs to accelerate the development of v.3.2.0 ... forget about the yellow player flickering ...