Trying to develop XOR for RnD

All about creating levels and level sets, custom elements and custom artwork.

Moderators: Flumminator, Zomis

r0lZ
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:24 pm

XOR beta 8

Post by r0lZ »

Here it is! XOR_v0.8.zip (Requires R'n'D v 2007-10-31 or greater!)

There are no tapes any more in the archive, but all scores files have been created by playing version beta 8. All levels with a score file are therefore playable, and I don't think that are still bugs. However, this is still a beta, as I have never played levels 14 and 15 of the Proscion set. I will play them as soon as possible, but I'm confident they will not cause problems.

I would like also to create a simple tutorial level, to explain the basic principles and how scoring works. And I suppose that I need to wait for a new official version of R'n'D before releasing the final version of XOR, as XOR needs the last modifications made by Holger.

BTW, Holger, feel free to implement whatever you want, but I don't need the modifications I have requested previously. Sorry.
I still would like to do a version for two human players, although I know already that there will probably be some incompatibilities. Anyway, to try that, I need to be able to set speed=frozen or normal for both players at the same time. Currently, it's not possible. So, if you have some free time, you know what to do! ;)

Thanks again to everyone who helped me!
r0lZ
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:24 pm

Post by r0lZ »

I confirm that the latest beta works as expected. I have played all levels now, and I haven't been able to find a bug! :)

However, I was unable to complete level 14 of the Proscion set, called "Vela Carina". To be absolutely sure that that was not due to a bug, I have played that level with the original Amiga version of the game, and I have exactly the same problem. I can collect all gems but one. (It's the emerald that is surrounded with walls in the cave just above the second player when you start the game.) IMO, a bomb or atom is missing, as currently there is nothing to destroy the wall and pick the emerald. I have replaced a rock by a bomb and the modified level is playable. The level included in v 0.8 is still the original, and might therefore be unplayable. However, as the most difficult levels of XOR are really difficult to master, I might have missed something. Maybe I haven't found the right method yet. So, if someone has some time to play XOR, I would appreciate if he can try to complete that level. I would like to know if I must leave that level unchanged in the final release. Thanks!

BTW, although very difficult, level 15, "Crux", is playable! I have the tape to prove it!

I did also a simple tutorial level, that I have added as level 0 in both the original and the Proscion sets. I will not release a new beta just for that, but let me know if you want to check it.
Last edited by r0lZ on Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
r0lZ
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:24 pm

Forum problem?

Post by r0lZ »

Thanks to Google, I have just discovered this thread in the New Ideas forum, about Prospector in the mazes of XOR.
I would like to post in that thread, but strangely, when I click on the Post Reply button, I am redirected to the main index page. Seems I can't post in the whole New Ideas forum. Something wrong?
Zomis
Posts: 1502
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:27 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Forum problem?

Post by Zomis »

r0lZ wrote:Thanks to Google, I have just discovered this thread in the New Ideas forum, about Prospector in the mazes of XOR.
I would like to post in that thread, but strangely, when I click on the Post Reply button, I am redirected to the main index page. Seems I can't post in the whole New Ideas forum. Something wrong?
Try with putting www. at the beggining of the link. viewtopic.php?t=24
r0lZ
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:24 pm

Post by r0lZ »

Yeah! That works. Thanks!
r0lZ
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:24 pm

XOR v0.9

Post by r0lZ »

Here is the latest, and probably the last beta of XOR: XOR_v0.9.zip

I have added the tutorial level, some readme files, and improved score files.

I have had a good confirmation that level 14 of the Proscion set is really unplayable. Also, I have downloaded a fresh copy of XOR for the Amiga, and compared the levels of that version with my levels. There are also two levels that I had already modified in the past. A level had some missing elements in the external border. Obviously, it's a bug, but that level was still playable. The other one was also unplayable. It's level 5 of the Proscion mazes. Since level 5 is supposed to be easy, I'm sure that it was buggy. Therefore, I can safely assume that level 14 is unplayable also because there is a bug in that level, and I haven't played it in the past. Anyway, level 5 and 14 of the Proscion set of my game are modified versions, and are playable now. I have added those levels in their original and most probably unplayable form at the end of the additional set, so that you can try by yourself.
(BTW, I have renamed the "XOR Bonus Mazes" set to "XOR Additional Mazes".)

This version is most probably the final release. I will release it as v1.0 (and start a new discussion thread here) in a couple of days, unless someone reports a bug or a typo in the readme files.

Have fun!
Steffest
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:27 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Post by Steffest »

Hey rOlZ !

Very interesting game concept!
It was the first time I tried your Xor (or any Xor for that matter)
There are some really cool puzzles in those levels!

1 thing that was discussed earlier in this thread are the graphics.
I have currently not the intention to make new graphics for XOR, as the current graphics are good enough. But I agree that new graphics are good to inform the user that the behaviour of the elements is different than the original one.
With the currect graphics some very weird things happen in my mind - haha - almost a shortcircuit.
Emeralds not falling, you cant move down standing under a boulder, pushable ship ... haha - Very weird !

I don't know if someone offered this allready, but maybe I could help out to create some new graphics?
I have no idea how the previous Xor versions look, but maybe thats a plus :-)
I would be glad to help out.
Either to grab the images from the amiga version and spice them up, or to create some new ones.

Let me know!

Steffest
r0lZ
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:24 pm

Post by r0lZ »

Hi! Thanks for your appreciation on the game concept.

I have already tried to grab the Amiga graphics. Unfortunately, they are not very good, and the tiles are 24x24 pixels instead of 32x32 in RnD. I have tried to scale them, but the result is horrible! Furthermore, I cannot grab the animations. I have grabbed the sounds and the music, but here again, they are horrible!

IMO, it is probably easier and more interesting to create completely new graphics, perhaps in 3D like the BD2K3 set. That's easier to create animations.

The original look doesn't matter much. Anyway, the look of the original XOR game is already very different than the Amiga one. Personally, I thought at something completely new, like an underwater world, with anchors, mines, submarines, torpedo, fish, crabs, shells and walls made of seaweed, or something like that. The hero could be a diver. But unfortunately, I'm not a good artist, and I haven't the technical knowledge of the 3D programs to do that.

Of course, if you want to help, you're welcome. And you are free to choose the look that you prefer. I will help you as much as I can, and assume the integration of the graphics in the game. Do you really want to do it?

I can give you the original Amiga version if you want to have a look, but you will have to install an Amiga emulator, like WinUAE.
Steffest
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:27 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Post by Steffest »

Hey!

Well, I can't promise you the world, but I would certainly be interested in doing some graphical work.

I converted the sprites from the Amiga game "Magic Pockets" to a boulder-imageset once (screenshot here) and started a new emerald mine imageset with 32x32 sprites that never got really finished (screenshot here).
I also contributed some graphics for Igor, another BD/Supaplex clone

Anyway, my 3D-skills are not that optimal and i kind of like the pixel-look of those old amiga games, but your underwater world theme idea is actually very good! it fits the puzzle mood perfectly (lots of floating objects) and using a diver as the hero wil make it easy to fill up the square (I hate thin looking heroes :-) )

I found a decent looking PC version here with 48x48 pixel sprites and I found the ADF image of the Amiga version floating around usenet, but you are right: a new and original spriteset would be preferable.

I'll give it a go, but don't hold off your version 1 release :-)
In the christmas holiday period I'll have some time to do the graphics.

If my deduction is any good, you're from "La Wallonie"?
I live in Antwerp myself, so why don't we show our federal government that, unlike them, we CAN work together :-) hehe

Cheers
Steffest
r0lZ
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:24 pm

Post by r0lZ »

Well, good graphics, indeed! Your emerald mine set is almost sufficient, but I would prefer completely new graphics, of course. The underwater world is perhaps a good idea, but we will have to find or record underwater sounds too. Not sure it's easy.

It is not necessary to do the graphics in 3D, of course. I was just thinking that it is easier to create animated objects that way, but it's up to you.

I know the version by Ovine. It uses the original graphics (perhaps somewhat improved) but I don't like them. The heroes are non-animated shields, for example! What a strange idea! Furthermore, that version has many bugs and is not fun to play.

I'm not sure I will release v1.0 soon. Ideally, it is preferable to release it after the next official version of RnD, for compatibility reasons. Holger, any chance to have a new release soon? Anyway, I can wait Xmas before releasing v1.0.

And yes, I live in Chaumont-Gistoux, a little village near Wavre. What's happening in Belgium currently is very disappointing! I have worked with Flemish guys in Brussels in the past, and I still have some friends from the other side of the "barrier". Our politicians are becoming crazy!

Dag! ;)
r0lZ
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:24 pm

Post by r0lZ »

Steffest, any news?
Steffest
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:27 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Post by Steffest »

sure!
but not that many new graphics yet.
After some pixel things I decided to do them in 3D anyway.
At his moment I got some nice water_bubble effects and a rough draft of the main character, which is a diver with 2 aircanisters and huge glasses.

I'll to clean them up a bit and send you a rough draft ... (not this weekend though , later his week)

See ya!
Steffest
r0lZ
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:24 pm

Post by r0lZ »

Thanks for the info. Glad you have something already. But take your time. I'm not in a hurry!
Steffest wrote:After some pixel things I decided to do them in 3D anyway.
;)
User avatar
Holger
Site Admin
Posts: 4073
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Holger »

Quoting and answering myself here:
Holger wrote:About the problem of being unable to use a "horizontal impact" (hitting horizontally):

> IMO, there are several solutions possible, but they require some
> modifications or additions in the game engine.

> 1. You could add an option "Deadly when [hitting player]". IMO, it's the best
> solution, but I don't know if it is easy to implement.

I think this option is indeed missing! Currently, there are the two obvious options "deadly when touching" and "deadly when running into", and the not-so-obvious "deadly when colliding with". The third option includes two different conditions: A player reaches a tile where he would "hit" the next tile with this condition, and the CE tries to move to a tile which is occupied by a player. Especially the second case is currently also true when the CE was never moving, but *would* move to the player's tile. It is debatable if this should really count as a "collision", as the CE was never moving at all before.

Adding a "deadly when hitting player" option (that includes that the CE was moving before hitting the player) would be very, very useful, and would add to the existing "deadly when" options in an orthogonal manner.
I've just added exactly this! Seems very useful (and missing so far) indeed!

From the ChangeLog file:

Code: Select all

        * added condition "deadly when <getting hit by>" for custom elements
          that behaves a bit like the existing "deadly when <colliding with>",
          but with the following differences:
          - it only kills players or friends when it was moving before it hits
          - it does not kill players or friends that try to run into it
> 2. The problem doesn't exist for the rocks and the bombs, because they
> are falling down, and I can use the "Can fall" and "Can smash [player]"
> options to do exactly what I need. So, another solution could be to define
> an optional direction for the falling elements. If I could have an option like
> "Can fall [left]", I could use "Can smash player" when the CE smashes the
> player at his right side. If the default direction is "down", the compatibility
> with existing levels is probably assured.

That's right! And I think that a concept of "can fall <up/down/left/right>" would really be useful!
This may be added later, as it requires quite some non-trivial engine changes.
> 3. A variant of the previous solutions could be to enable the "Can smash
> player" option even if the "Can fall" option is not enabled. Currently, in this
> case, "Can smash" is ignored. If "Can smash player" is ticked but not "Can
> fall", you could assume that the CE can smash the player from any
> direction.

I also agree here! Selecting "can smash" could be used for all actions that result in an "impact" action/condition, not only those related to "falling", but also those related to "moving".
I think it may be best to keep this for a potentially enhanced falling direction as described above, to be able to distinguish between "hitting" (which can result from a moving object" and "smashing" (which can result from a falling object, even if it may "fall" upwards, if this is possible one day!).
> 4. As previously suggested, recognizing the player in the change page
> conditions will certainly be sufficient to program what I need. But you have
> explained that it's not easy to do.

Finally, also this should work, to make things more orthogonal. I still have to check if this would be easy to add or if it might need more effort.
Just added this, too! This was especially missing, as people normally could expect to be able to use player elements in change pages just as normal elements, but this was not possible here and there so far. The extensions are as follows (again from the ChangeLog file):

Code: Select all

        * fixed the following change conditions where a player element is used
          as the "element that is triggering the custom element change":
          - touching <element>
          - hitting <element>
          - explosion of <element>
          - move of <element>
          (the last two conditions already worked partially, but only for the
          first player, and not for the "Murphy" player when using "move of")
Unfortunately, I cannot give an "estimated time of arrival" for one of these fixes, but I'll try to work on this as soon as possible!
As I know, I am too late with these additions (as usual), as you were already able to achieve what you wanted to do without them (which is good, as it shows that the current engine is flexible enough if the level or CE creator is creative enough! ;-) ), but here they are! I hope they will make life a bit easier at least for future level and CE designers! :-D

A pre-release to test these two new features will be available soon!
User avatar
Holger
Site Admin
Posts: 4073
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by Holger »

I just wrote:

> A pre-release to test these two new features will be available soon!

OK, here it is:

http://www.artsoft.org/RELEASES/win32/r ... 080122.zip

It also contains the crash bugfix and the EMC graphics engine bugfix mentioned in the corresponding posts about these bugs (I'll link to the new pre-release there, too).

> I'll try to get at least a new beta version out that contains some of your
> requested changes before christmas... :-/

Oh well. I think I've missed this by just one month... :-( ;-)
Post Reply