The World Making Challenge

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Tomi
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The World Making Challenge

Post by Tomi »

This is supposed to be a challenge for CE makers. I'm currently experimenting with some interesting techniques and trying to solve some CE problems*. By the means of this 'challenge' I'd like to see if you also come with some interesting solutions. So, the goal of it is to make a good solution to given problem. The best solution (and the person who made it) wins. (By this I don't mean winning any prize, just winning the challenge, if it makes any sense.)

Motivation for joining the challenge should be the same as motivation for inventing new techniques, although I don't know how to say it in words.

I'm not yet sure about things like judging and time limit, but I'd prefer no time limit (the best solution is the best even if it's posted after end of the challenge, after all).

* - by 'problems' I don't mean trouble, but rather something like "how to do this" (I don't know the exact english word, 'problems' seems to be the best fitting)
** - I was never sure about this aspect of english: is 'anyone' he or she?

Assignment 1
The goal is to create a collectible+droppable/throwable CE, which, when dropped, expands into a rectangle (of given size) full of CEs of one kind, in which each CE has unique CE value. The time between dropping of the CE and finishing the rectangle should be less than 50 frames.
So: player collects CE1, drops it, and it makes a rectangle of CE2s next to him, and every one of the CE2s has CE value that no other CE2 has.

Alan's FMV (downloadable from bd-fans.com) might be an interesting technique to look at.
Zomis
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Re: The World Making Challenge

Post by Zomis »

Tomi wrote:Alan's FMV (downloadable from bd-fans.com) might be an interesting technique to look at.
Isn't that kind of like the solution?

How large should the rectangle be?

The biggest problem seems to be creating the rectangle... :?
Tomi
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Post by Tomi »

The biggest problem seems to be creating the rectangle...
Exactly! Unfortunately, I realized that only after posting this. So, a new version that clarifies things a bit:

Assignment 1
Make a technique that creates a rectangle of elements of one kind. Make a CE that explodes when the rectangle is done (to prove that you can detect when the rectangle is done). Changing the technique to generate a rectangle of other size should be as easy as possible - that means, changing two numbers in the editor.

So, for now, this seems to be a challenge for the best rectangle making tecnique. (It's not yet World Making, but we'll get to that too.)

Btw, please tell me what do you think. I'm not yet sure if this challenge is a good / popular idea, so let me know your opinion.
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Francesco
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Post by Francesco »

I like the overall "contest" idea, and also the first assignment as you have modified it, Tomi.

I don't know if I'll participate, I'm a bit too busy, as for now :( but it's a very nice idea, hope that we'll see a lot of solutions to this first task.
Anyway, by the way, have fun!
Francesco
Zomis
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Post by Zomis »

Tomi wrote:Assignment 1
Make a technique that creates a rectangle of elements of one kind. Make a CE that explodes when the rectangle is done (to prove that you can detect when the rectangle is done). Changing the technique to generate a rectangle of other size should be as easy as possible - that means, changing two numbers in the editor.
Assignment finished!
http://www.zomis.net/rnd/download.php?id=558

CEs: 4 + 1 optional.
1. Collectible & droppable item (1 change page)
2. Rectangle make - Up (3 change pages)
3. Rectangle make - Right (3 change pages)
4. Flood filler (1 change page)
5. Rectangle border (Optional) (No change pages)

So, what's the next assignment, Tomi? 8)
Tomi
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Post by Tomi »

Wow! Really nice solution, Zomis! My original solution of the assignment isn't so elegant, uses more CEs and is slower, so this is IMO really awesome! (BTW my solution is here: http://www.zomis.net/rnd/download.php?id=563 )

Btw, I was AFK for some time because I was installing Debian GNU/Linux OS on my computer and didn't have enough time to check the forum.
Zomis
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Post by Zomis »

Tomi wrote:My original solution of the assignment isn't so elegant, uses more CEs and is slower, so this is IMO really awesome! (BTW my solution is here: http://www.zomis.net/rnd/download.php?id=563 )
Yikes...:shock: You really call that a solution? :P Well... it does creates the rectangle... but in a veeery strange way... and try setting the CE values to 3 (CE29) and 10 (CE30)... creates an interesting "thing"... which could also be useful sometimes maybe :P

So, what's the next step in "The world making challenge"?

Welcome back to the forum btw, I noticed that you were gone...
Tomi
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Post by Tomi »

Yes, sizes smaller than 4x4 aren't supported.

I'll post the next assignment in a moment, I'll just finish reading other topics, be patient. ;-)
Tomi
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Post by Tomi »

(Note: of course, solutions for assignment 1 are still welcomed.)

So, here it comes...

Assignment 2 - World Making
The goal is to make an illusion of a big level by making "sections" (aka rooms or levels) and allowing the player to move between them, similarly to Zelda and Game Inside one-level-sets. "Goals to aim for"(?) are big section sizes, much variety for section content, large number of sections, and small numbers of CEs/mapsquares per section. Ideally, sections should be at least 15x15, but it's not required.
(In situations like this, "max 32 changepages" start to be limiting... not to talk about max 256 CEs.)
Some thoughts: when making a "world making technique" like this, there are some goals (e.g. many sections, unlimited variety), and a perfect solution doesn't exist yet. You just have to sacrifice some of them. In Game Inside, you can put any element in the sections, but you have max 32 sections and they're 9x9 in size. On contrary, in Zelda, you have 200+ sections, each 27x27 in size, but they're made from a combination of generic templates (each room has exits, shape and content), so their variety is very limited. As always, all solutions are welcomed, but what I'd like most would be a technique that would produce 15x15 rooms of unlimited variety and number, and max 2 CEs per room. And I think I have some ideas how to do it.
Zomis
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Post by Zomis »

Tomi wrote:Assignment 2 - World Making
The goal is to make an illusion of a big level by making "sections" (aka rooms or levels) and allowing the player to move between them, similarly to Zelda and Game Inside one-level-sets. "Goals to aim for"(?) are big section sizes, much variety for section content, large number of sections, and small numbers of CEs/mapsquares per section. Ideally, sections should be at least 15x15, but it's not required.
(In situations like this, "max 32 changepages" start to be limiting... not to talk about max 256 CEs.)
Some thoughts: when making a "world making technique" like this, there are some goals (e.g. many sections, unlimited variety), and a perfect solution doesn't exist yet. You just have to sacrifice some of them. In Game Inside, you can put any element in the sections, but you have max 32 sections and they're 9x9 in size. On contrary, in Zelda, you have 200+ sections, each 27x27 in size, but they're made from a combination of generic templates (each room has exits, shape and content), so their variety is very limited. As always, all solutions are welcomed, but what I'd like most would be a technique that would produce 15x15 rooms of unlimited variety and number, and max 2 CEs per room. And I think I have some ideas how to do it.
Oh shit :shock:
With only 2 CEs? Whoa!?
Please, tell me those ideas about how to do it! I'm completely lost :?

And btw... anyone has a tape of game inside? I just can't complete the first level!
Daniel H.
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Post by Daniel H. »

The latest version of Game Inside (released around Christmas 2005) comes with a solution tape.
The H. World levelset can be downloaded from http://www.bd-fans.com/RnD.html -- search The H. World on that page.
Tomi
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Post by Tomi »

To put it as simply as possible:
IMO the best "data storage" method in RnD are extended change targets - with them, you can put most data in one CE. Because of extended change target size (3x3), each room is divided into 3x3 sectors. In 15x15 room there is 15*15/9 = 25 sectors. With one extended change target per changepage, you can store whole room in a CE (which has 25 changepages). I'll call such CE a "room element", because it "contains" a room. The tricky part is to load it from the CE on the playfield. There are two main steps:
1. position 25 room elements in the room to their correct positions (so when they expand, they don't overlap)
2. make them change, *but* each instance of the room element should change via its own changepage, so each will expand with its own extended change target (having this or this would be very very helpful, it's much harder without them).

Btw, I didn't complete Game Inside. (But I know how it works! ;-) )
Tomi
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Post by Tomi »

I have just finished theoretical work on my solution of the assignment. (That means that all that's remaining is to put it into the level editor and add some techniques that shouldn't be very hard, like something that erases previous room content) It should all work perfectly and it uses only 10-20 CEs, plus one single data CE per room. Rooms are 15x15 in size. Number of rooms is limited only by number of free CEs. A downside is that it is slow, but at least it *works*...

I think I may wait with uploading for a while, however. I'd like to see someone else to do something like it too (and hopefully better ;-) ).
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Post by Zomis »

Tomi wrote:To put it as simply as possible:
IMO the best "data storage" method in RnD are extended change targets - with them, you can put most data in one CE. Because of extended change target size (3x3), each room is divided into 3x3 sectors. In 15x15 room there is 15*15/9 = 25 sectors. With one extended change target per changepage, you can store whole room in a CE (which has 25 changepages). I'll call such CE a "room element", because it "contains" a room. The tricky part is to load it from the CE on the playfield. There are two main steps:
1. position 25 room elements in the room to their correct positions (so when they expand, they don't overlap)
2. make them change, *but* each instance of the room element should change via its own changepage, so each will expand with its own extended change target (having this or this would be very very helpful, it's much harder without them).

Btw, I didn't complete Game Inside. (But I know how it works! ;-) )
Aaah... Now I see what you are thinking...
I was more thinking about CE values and the "CE value of current element" pseudo-element, but well... I think your solution seems better :)
But I'll sleep on it tonight, maybe I'll come up with something tomorrow...
Tomi wrote:I have just finished theoretical work on my solution of the assignment. (That means that all that's remaining is to put it into the level editor and add some techniques that shouldn't be very hard, like something that erases previous room content)
So I guess you'd like to have a CE-scripter now, wouldn't you? ;) Sorry, still haven't made one :(
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Alan
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Post by Alan »

Interesting topic, can't wait to see your finished version Tomi.
(That means that all that's remaining is to put it into the level editor and add some techniques that shouldn't be very hard, like something that erases previous room content)
Never underestimate the "easy stuff", sometimes it can surprise you (in a bad way)
Number of rooms is limited only by number of free CEs. A downside is that it is slow, but at least it *works*...
Even if it was only 80 or so rooms, if they're totally unique then that would be really cool. Save at least 60 for the game play engine though!
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