Where did the elements in the "RND" section of the editor originate?

Discussion about Rocks'n'Diamonds, Boulder Dash, Supaplex, Emerald Mine and any other BD hybrid.

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ncrecc
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Where did the elements in the "RND" section of the editor originate?

Post by ncrecc » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am

Some of the elements in the RND category seem like the kind of things that would be ports of elements from other Boulder Dash clones, but what clones are they from? Or did all of those elements debut in Rocks'n'Diamonds itself?

I'm specifically wondering about the origins of:
  • The doors you can walk on instead of passing through
  • The FUEL orb
  • The Pac Man creature (more than "it's from Pac Man!", of course :P)
  • The speed pill
  • Dark Yam-Yam
  • The non-sokoban lamps
  • Biomaze
  • Dynabombs
  • The penguin
  • The pig
  • The dragon

Eizzoux
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Re: Where did the elements in the "RND" section of the editor originate?

Post by Eizzoux » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:02 am

ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • The FUEL orb
They pretty much originate from Mindbender. Just check the elements of Mirror Magic engine (or any MM level) and you'll see those FUEL orbs in the game which does the exact thing - adds some energy (time) to your laser (that's actually why it says FUEL, but not TIME or anything).
ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • The Pac Man creature (more than "it's from Pac Man!", of course :P)
Same for Pacmen, they're used in Mindbender, and they're doing just the same - eating amoeba tiles and changing moving direction after hitting an obstacle.
ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • The non-sokoban lamps
Again, they're from Mindbender, in Mindbender they're turning on and off on hitting them with laser beam.
ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • Dynabombs
They're from Bomberman, it's pretty much obvious.

My assumptions on some other ones:
ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • The doors you can walk on instead of passing through
I think they come from old Windows/Amstrad/ZX Spectrum/Commodore game called "Chip's Challenge". It is mainly based on collecting keys to open others.
ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • The speed pill
Not sure about this one, but I think it also comes from "Chip's Challenge", but I'm sure I am wrong.
ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • Dark Yam-Yam
ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • Biomaze
  • The penguin
  • The pig
  • The dragon
No idea about these ones.
Nothing in here...*

ncrecc
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Re: Where did the elements in the "RND" section of the editor originate?

Post by ncrecc » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:51 am

Eizzoux wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:02 am
ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • The doors you can walk on instead of passing through
I think they come from old Windows/Amstrad/ZX Spectrum/Commodore game called "Chip's Challenge". It is mainly based on collecting keys to open others.
ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • The speed pill
Not sure about this one, but I think it also comes from "Chip's Challenge", but I'm sure I am wrong.
I know this isn't the case. The doors in Chip's Challenge are erased when you walk on them with the correct key, and all but the green door use up keys the way white doors use up white keys. There was no speed pill in the original Chip's Challenge either. Chip's Challenge 2 has speed boots that let you go twice as fast, but that game was never publicly released until 2015. The Mindbender and Bomberman references sound plausible, though.

filbo
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Re: Where did the elements in the "RND" section of the editor originate?

Post by filbo » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:34 am

Holger was the author of Mirror Magic (released as 'Mindbender' -- see viewtopic.php?t=986 for background).

What is not explained in those old messages is whether MM and its elements were entirely newly designed by Holger; other possibilities I can think of are (1) that it was a clone or 'in the spirit of' some other game of the time (then published by a game publishing house); or (2) the game was designed by a game publishing house, and Holger only wrote the code for hire. I suspect some variant of (1).

Later descriptions describe Mirror Magic as a 'clone of Mindbender', but since AFAICT Holger wrote both (and also AFAICT only ever wanted to use the name 'Mirror Magic', 'Mindbender' having been imposed by the publisher), it might better be characterized as an 'update' or possibly 'rewrite' of the original.

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Re: Where did the elements in the "RND" section of the editor originate?

Post by Radiant » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:47 am

ncrecc wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:40 am
  • Dynabombs
They're specifically from Dyna Blaster, hence the name. Dyna Blaster is the original European release of Bomberman, which was retitled to avoid unfortunate implications of the name.
  • Biomaze
This is from Conway's Game of Life.

ncrecc
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Re: Where did the elements in the "RND" section of the editor originate?

Post by ncrecc » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:47 pm

Radiant wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:47 am
  • Biomaze
This is from Conway's Game of Life.
Biomaze, from what I've observed, is some odd variant on Conway, where tiles can sporadically reproduce between generations. Is this variant seen anywhere outside of RnD?

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Holger
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Re: Where did the elements in the "RND" section of the editor originate?

Post by Holger » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:41 pm

Just noticed that I did not write anything here! :-D

So maybe I can add some more information bits in addition to what was already (mostly correctly) written:
The doors you can walk on instead of passing through
Early versions of R'n'D were not trying to exactly emulate the behavior of existing games, but were only (heavily) inspired by them (mainly "Emerald Mine", of course, which I played on my Amiga and wanted to have something similar on my Linux box, where no such games existed (this was around 1993/94) and UAE was still the "Unusable Amiga Emulator" (or even did not exist yet), so playing the original game on an emulated Amiga on Linux was neither an option yet).

Therefore, these doors simply were an implementation of a "door which can only be accessed with the right key" and no attempt to copy the exact behavior of the old Emerald Mine.

Later, when I tried to extend R'n'D to be able to play the classic levels of Emerald Mine, I added the door variants that come closer to the original, but kept the old ones, which were already used in user contributed R'n'D levels (and sometimes relied on that exact behavior).
The FUEL orb
The Pac Man creature (more than "it's from Pac Man!", of course :P)
The non-sokoban lamps
As Eizzoux already wrote, they're from Mirror Magic.
Dynabombs
And yes, these are from Dynablaster, as the name suggests.
The speed pill
That was a genuine new R'n'D game element, I think.
Dark Yam-Yam
That's from DX-Boulderdash, a Boulderdash clone by Steffest (that's the guy behind www.emeraldmines.net).
The penguin
The pig
The dragon
And don't forget the mole!

They're all from the game "Iceblox", a Java applet browser game by Karl Hörnell.
Biomaze
This is from Conway's Game of Life.
Well, sort of... :-)
Biomaze, from what I've observed, is some odd variant on Conway, where tiles can sporadically reproduce between generations. Is this variant seen anywhere outside of RnD?
Most probably not. And "odd variant of Conway's Game of Life" more or less hits the nail on the head.

This element was the first, but failed attempt to add a "Conway's Game of Life" element to R'n'D. It contained a bug that caused the element to behave quite different from what was intended. But I found the result quite interesting and useful for R'n'D, so I kept the buggy element and gave it its own name. :-)
What is not explained in those old messages is whether MM and its elements were entirely newly designed by Holger
No, they were not. Mirror Magic had the same intentions regarding the old C64 game "Deflektor" which I wanted to play on my Amiga in 1988 as R'n'D had regarding Emerald Mine. And, just as R'n'D, it was only later extended to be able to play the original Deflektor levels.
Later descriptions describe Mirror Magic as a 'clone of Mindbender', but since AFAICT Holger wrote both (and also AFAICT only ever wanted to use the name 'Mirror Magic', 'Mindbender' having been imposed by the publisher), it might better be characterized as an 'update' or possibly 'rewrite' of the original.
Yes, that's all right.

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