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den of the dancing lions
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by
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dustin
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DUSTIN                            2019-10-26 14:06
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I'VE STUDIEN THE 7 PHASES OF arno'S NEW DFS IN SOME DETAIL - SEE ALSO arno'S HOMEPAGE FORUM - AND ACCORDING TO MY THEORY IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GET THE BONUS DIAMOND. IF ANYONE CAN PROVE ME WRONG - DEMO PLEASE! ;D

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DUSTIN                            2019-10-26 14:07
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IT'S ALSO NOT TRIVIAL TO SEE WHICH DIAMONDS TO COLLECT AND IN WHICH ORDER ;D

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NESDORI                           2019-10-26 14:28
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I AGREE WITH YOU THAT IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO GET THE LAST DIAMOND.

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DUSTIN                            2019-10-26 14:39
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THIS COUNTS AS SCIENTIFIC PROOF! ;D

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NESDORI                           2019-10-26 14:42
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NOT REALLY, MAYBE AFTER arno'S SCIENTIFIC ARTICLE ABOUT THIS :)

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DUSTIN                            2019-10-26 14:51
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I'VE ALREADY WRITTEN A KIND OF ARTICLE ON THE FORUM ABOUT THE THEORY BEHIND THE "DANCING GURADS" CAVE.

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NESDORI                           2019-10-26 15:30
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OK, I GOTTA READ IT.  
  
NOW THAT ALL SIMPLE MOVING FORMATIONS HAVE BEEN FOUND, WE CAN START LOOKING FOR DIFFERENT BOX FORMATIONS :)  
  
I'M PRETTY SURE THERE STILL ARE SOME COMPLEX FLYING FORMATIONS CONSISTING OF 6+ FLIES TO BE FOUND. IN CASE YOU HAVEN'T YET CHECKED, ONE EXAMPLE OF SUCH GROUP IS SHOWN IN MY "NEW FLY FORMATIONS (DEMO CAVE)" CAVE. IT'S A GROUP OF 6 FFLIES MOVING DOWN (VERY SLOWLY MOVING, THE SLOWEST MOVING GROUP THAT HAVE BEEN FOUND). THERE'S ALSO SOME OTHER QUICK ANALYSIS OF IT IN THE COMMENTS.

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DUSTIN                            2019-10-26 16:10
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nesdori - WOW, GOTTA CHECK IT OUT LATER!  
arno - I'VE GOT A LOT MORE IDEAS ABOUT DFS-CAVES - WOULD YOU MIND IF I KEEP PLAYING AROUND WITH YOUR DISCOVERY?

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ARNO                              2019-10-26 16:44
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dustin: YEAH FINE! I HAVE SOME IDEAS TOO, BUT I'M CURIOUS! :-)  
  
nesdori: I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT 2 OF THE DFF'S THAT YOU DISCOVERED,  THE ONES THAT ARE CALLED SINKING-F6 AND CASSIOPEIA IN MY LIST (SEE FORUM, FIRST POST).  
  
QUESTION: DO YOU REMEMBER HOW YOU FOUND THESE FORMATIONS?  
  
I'VE BEEN TRYING TO FIND FUNNY EFFECTS BY COLLIDING AN EXISTING DFF WITH A SPINNING FLY OR VORTEX, IN ALL POSSIBLE LOCATIONS/TIMINGS. THIS HAS RESULTED IN CAVES LIKE 'FIREFLY CIRCUS', BUT ALSO IN THE 7-FFLY DFS FROM MY LAST CAVE AND dustin'S.  
ALSO, SOMETIMES A BIGGER FORMATION IS FORMED WHEN THE SPINNING FLY OR VORTEX MERGES WITH THE DANCING FORMATION.  
  
THIS WAY, ALL KNOWN DFF'S CAN BE DERIVED FROM SMALLER ONES, EXCEPT FOR SINKING-F6 AND CASSIOPEIA (AND OR COURSE THE SMALLEST FNF AND BNB).  
  
FOR THIS REASON I'M WONDERING, WERE YOU USING ANY SPECIFIC 'DFF-GENERATION-METHOD'?

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NESDORI                           2019-10-26 19:23
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THE SINKING-F6 WAS FOUND BY FIRST GATHERING POTENTIAL 5-FLY FORMATIONS WHICH COULDN'T FLY BUT THERE WERE CLOSE AND THEN REINFORCE THEM WITH SOME LOGICAL ADDITIONS. SO INSTEAD OF COLLIDING GROUPS ALREADY CAPABLE OF MOVING I SELECTED "BIRD CHICKS" AND TRIED TO ADD FLY OR TWO WHICH HAD SOME LOGICAL INTERACTION WITH THE GROUP. THE BASE GROUP OF SINKING-F6 WAS THE SAME GROUP WHICH IS THE INITIAL STATE OF THE GROUP SHOWN ON MY "NEW FORMATIONS" CAVE APART FROM THE UPPER-RIGHT FLY WHICH WAS MY TEST ADDITION. THE 5-GROUP ITSELF WITHOUT 6TH FLY STARTS OFF PROMISINGLY AND MOVES TWO STEPS DOWN AND ONE RIGHT BEFORE IT LOSES MOMENTUM. AT THIS POINT I WAS TRYING TO FIND THE FIRST GROUP EVER WHICH MOVES DOWN-RIGHT AND I THOUGHT THIS COULD HAVE SOME POTENTIAL. IT TURNED OUT THAT IT INDEED HAS BUT INSTEAD OF MOVING DOWN-RIGHT IT MOVES DOWN BUT ANYWAY, IT'S NICE FORMATION SO I REALLY WASN'T DISAPPOINTED :) THE REASON I SELECTED 5-GROUPS TO BE THE BASE WAS THAT I WAS PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT IF THERE WAS 5-GROUP CAPABLE OF MOVING DOWN-RIGHT IT ALREADY WOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND. SO I ASSUMED THAT IF THE WERE WAS SUCH A GROUP IT PROBABLY HAS 6-7 OR MAYBE EVEN MORE FLIES. THE POTENTIAL BASE 5-GROUPS WERE BUILT AROUND A VORTEX. IT SEEMS THAT A VORTEX IS THE "CARBON" OF DFF:S AND ALMOST EVERY DFF IS BUILT AROUND VORTEX. THE INITIAL 5-GROUP OF SINKING-G6 HAS TWO VORTEXES OVERLAPPING EACH OTHER. ALTHOUGH THE CYCLE LENGTH OF S-F6 IS 18 FRAMES, EVERY STATE HAS AT LEAST ONE VORTEX. EACH VORTEX IS NOT LONG-LASTING AND VORTEXES JUMP AROUND BUT ON EACH FRAME THERE'S A VORTEX SOMEWHERE. IT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE THERE'S A VORTEX OF FLY VORTEXES :)

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ARNO                              2019-10-26 20:13
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THANKS nesdori!  
  
I ALSO HAVE FOUND SOME "ALMOST-DFF'S" SO IT MIGHT INDEED BE A GOOD IDEA TO EXPERIMENT A BIT WITH THOSE TOO...  
  
DO YOU ALSO REMEMBER HOW YOU DISCOVERED CASSIOPEA (I.E. THE 5 BFLY GOING UP-RIGHT)? THIS ONE IS QUITE SPECIAL AS THE ONLY VORTEX I COULD SPOT LASTS ONLY 2 PHASES AND IS ALWAYS ACCOMPANIED BY OTHER BFLIES IN THEIR 2X2 SQUARE. :-)

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NESDORI                           2019-10-26 21:10
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YES, "CASSIOPEIA" IS A STRANGE CREATURE. IT INDEED HAS ONLY TWO VORTEXES IF YOU COUNT ALL PHASES OF A CYCLE AND EVEN THOSE AREN'T PURE VORTEXES BECAUSE THERE'S CROWD IN THE BOX. SO BECAUSE IT'S NOT "CARBON-BASED" IT PROBABLY INDEED IS AN ALIEN FROM SOME PLANET IN CASSIOPEIA :) (I FIRST WONDERED WHERE YOU GOT THE NAME UNTIL I REALIZED THAT ONE PHASE RESEMBLES "W" :)  
  
THIS CREATURE WAS FOUND BY ACCIDENT WHEN I TRIED SOME 6-BFLY FORMATION. THE INITIAL SET-UP PROBABLY HAD A VORTEX BUT THE ALIEN REJECTED IT AND DROPPED ITS TAIL.

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ARNO                              2019-10-26 22:35
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OK THANX! THE NAME 'CASSIOPEIA' WAS PROPOSED BY dustin AND INDEED INSPIRED BY THE W-SHAPE IN ONE OF IT'S PHASES, WHICH LOOKS LIKE CASSIOPEIA AS STAR CONSTELLATION.

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DUSTIN                            2019-10-27 06:27
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YEAH, I LIKE STAR CONSTELLATIONS AND THIS WAS MY IMMEDIATE ASSOCIATION WHEN I SAW THE BF FORMATION FOR THE FIRST TIME ;D

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ARNO                              2019-10-27 19:54
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FREE! :-)

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SHREDDER                          2019-10-27 20:19
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8-O PRECISE FRAME COUNTING :)

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SHREDDER                          2019-10-27 20:19
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OR BETTER - SUPERIOR FRAME COUNTING ;)

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NESDORI                           2019-10-27 21:56
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WHOA! arno, I KNOW THAT MOVEMENT BASED FRAME COUNTING IS SUPERIOR WHEN THE TARGET IS OUT OF THE VIEW BUT DID YOU REALLY FIND IT EASIER COUNT FRAMES THAT WAY THAN JUST LOOK FOR THE CORRECT PATTERN AND THEN MOVE? I SUSPECT YOU ARE TROLLING US (THEME OF THE DAY :)

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ARNO                              2019-10-28 08:20
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YEAH, EVEN AFTER STUDYING ALL 7 PHASES, I STILL HAVE HARD TIME TO ACT AT THE RIGHT FRAME, IN PARTCULAR WITH HIGH CAVE SPEED AND WHEN ROCKFORD STANDS STILL. SO I APPLY THIS "TIMING BY CONSTANT RUNNING" QUITE FREQUENTLY. I ALSO USE IT IN MY LATEST CAVE! :-)

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NESDORI                           2019-10-28 09:50
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HMM.. I HAVE TO TRY THAT METHOD MYSELF SOMETIME. RUNNING BACK AND FORTH IS EASY BUT YOU DID TIGHT CURVES AND PUSHES WHICH THEMSELVES ARE DEMANDING TO DO FRAME PERFECTLY. THE GROUP IS QUITE PSYCHEDELIC AND REPETITIVE TO STARE BUT STILL I FOUND EASY TRIGGER PATTERNS TO START MOVING ACTION.

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DUSTIN                            2019-10-28 10:38
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I USED A MIXTURE OF FRAME-COUNTING AND WATCHING PATTERNS. THERE'S EXACTLY ONE PHASE WHERE A FFLY CAN BE SEEN IN THE LOWER-RIGHT CORNER AND TWO PHASES WHERE A FFLY CAN BE SEEN IN THE LOWER-LEFT CORNER, WITH DIFFERENT DISTANCES BETWEEN THESE TWO PHASES. FIRST I FOUND OUT IN THEORY AT WHICH PHASES TO START RUNNING, AND THEN I IDENTIFIED THESE PHASES BY HELP OF THE FFLIES MENTIONED ABOVE.