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2020-05-15 13:30 Arno  
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 trischi , if the original cave were solvable you could have shown us a hidden solution, as  nesdori  requested.  
  
makes me think you're fooling us and you haven't tested your cave...  
  
is your keyboard broken?   
or are you (still) using a smartphone to design this cave?

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2020-05-15 13:40 shredder  
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honestly, i don't believe that previous one was solvable :P

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2020-05-15 13:51 trischi83  
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Smartphone

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2020-05-15 13:53 nesdori  
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i really would like to have an automated cave verification feature which shows if the author of the cave has solved the cave after the latest change. the flag would be set even if the author hasn't yet made cave ready and changes other than setting cave to be ready would clear the flag. so, if the author does the normal routine of solving the cave before publishing it, it still would be verified without a need to solve it again after publishing. this way a cave can remain "unsolved" and still be verified. the verification symbol could be a small symbol among the other symbols indicating open borders, time limit and so on. this would make "is tested" stuff obsolote and would be a clear indicator if the final cave has been solved by the author.  
  
so  krissz , how about it? :)

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2020-05-15 13:55 trischi83  
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Do you have that on your Note,  Arno ?

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2020-05-15 15:26 shredder  
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 nesdori , i've found 2 different behaviors of fflies in the 4ff/2hb room in previous version of this cave, but effect was the same in both... blast.

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2020-05-15 15:41 nesdori  
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 shredder , yes i found them too

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2020-05-15 19:24 DarkStoorM  
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Can someone confirm this is actually solvable? My best attempt in the 4th room was getting a clear path only for 2 frames and only once :P

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2020-05-15 19:45 nesdori  
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 darkstoorm , yes this should be solvable. i was able to found passable patterns for each room and even in way that only left or right side heavy boulder to the magic wall is dropped so that it's not necessary to "freefall" last rooms (which is the case if both heavy boulders surronding magic wall are dropped) but each room can be passed by separately dropping the boulder by hand. i guess the intended solution is to do a freefall drop through some rooms but it would require careful room syncing. advancing room by room is much simpler.

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2020-05-15 22:21 trischi83  
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Also, ich melde mich komplett ab (forever)! Ihr seid echt 'ne jaultruppe (fehlt nur noch das ihr Masken beim Spielen aufhabt) ich wuensche euch noch die ultimative nackenschelle von funsan und dann ist nach 7 Jahren auch genug!

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2020-05-15 22:33 shredder  
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 trischi , it's hard to understand for someone who don't speak deutsch.

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2020-05-16 01:39 dustin  
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 nesdori  - i think this is a nice idea, but it also has some disadvantages imo:  
  
1. if someone creates a cave, tests it successfully and then decides to make a tiny little change which obviously doesn't change the solution, they would still have to make another successful run. especially if it's a hard cave, this can be very annoying.  
  
2.  Arno  often uploads other people's caves from fangames. perhaps he played the cave on another platform/bd clone and liked it, so he redesigned it on this site, and then he would always have to make a successful run here before uploading it.   
  
2b. similarly, i mostly test my own new caves in gdash. i still have my old "non-perfect" keyboard - somehow i love old things - so it's way easier for me to play in gdash because there i can change the keys. and yes, i know that sounds strange ;d  
  
so i think the question whether or not to force cave designers to make a successful run before uploading is not so trivial to answer...  
  
 shredder  - i wish i couldn't understand it, either... :(

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2020-05-16 07:42 krissz  
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 dustin ! This would be just a simple flag which means the cave is definately playable. To eliminate the unnecessary "It is tested" comments. You can publish your cave without successful run but you won't get this "successfully tested" flag. So playing again on the caves is not mandatory to publish caves. I think that's what  nesdori  want.

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2020-05-16 09:54 nesdori  
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 dustin : the verification wouldn't be so serious. it would be just a helpful tip for players that the cave indeed is solvable. of course caves transferred from elsewhere would usually be non-verified and that's perfectly ok. it would be also perfectly ok to release a cave designed with  krissz 's editor as non-verified as well if the creator strongly thinks that the cave is solvable. sometimes if the cave is very challenging i wonder if the creator made a mistake he didn't realize and the cave is not anymore solvable but the verification would remove the doubts immediately without asking about it.

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2020-05-16 11:26 dustin  
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ahh, alright. yes, i think this sounds very sensible!

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2020-05-16 12:04 DarkStoorM  
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Not sure if that is what you mean, but I think the cave can also have a (yes/no) option in the settings called "Cave is Tested" above the "cave is ready" option, which the cave creator can toggle after he plays it and possibly solves it, which would be his task as a cave validation - we would then have to trust the cave creator that the cave is solvable  
  
This option could show an icon on the caves list where the time/border icons are displayed, something like a check mark or X-mark, but I do not know how it would handle already published caves - probably automatically set it as "tested" once solved.  
  
There are cases where the cave creator makes a change and does not test the cave again, so I guess it would revert back to "untested".  
  
There could also be a flag for "unsolvable cave" or changing the cave name to red if it's obviously unsolvable - there are some caves in the old engine, which are unsolvable, so it would warn potentially new players when they go through the old collections, like where there is not enough time, missing outbox.  
  
Possibly,  krissz , maybe it could be possible to convert the old caves to the new engine without having to upload a new cave. :D

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2020-05-16 12:09 shredder  
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 darkstoorm , converting old engine caves to the new engine is not the best idea. many solutions are based on old engine rules and they are way different.   
for example: you can't touch the fliesat all, when you play with old engine.

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2020-05-16 12:14 DarkStoorM  
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Yes  shredder , I noticed that, but not sure how to feel about unsolvable caves :D

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2020-05-16 12:21 shredder  
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you can still do clone of an old engine cave that you want to play :)

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2020-05-16 12:32 nesdori  
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 darkstoorm , i think that the solvable flag should not be set by the author. almost any cave is published with the assumption that the cave is solvable and some still are not. it will also eliminate errors made by the author. sometimes the author may test the cave in pieces, or make modifications during the test and then forget to change the objects or some setting back. so he'll then set "solvable" on and in reality there's an error. sometimes even a tiny change will make the cave impossible and might be missed by the author. so i like the idea that the verification is automated which would make it 100% error-proof.  
  
"impossible" setting for caves is another interesting idea but who would decide that which cave is impossible? even if the majority of players think that "this cave is impossible" some player might find a shortcut and solve it. i have learned that things like "this cave is impossible" or "bonus diamonds are not possible in this cave" are very dangerous statements about almost any bd cave :)

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2020-05-16 12:44 DarkStoorM  
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Bonus diamonds, yes, "impossible" is more probable, but so far I see it mostly happens in old caves, just going through "unsolved caves". There's not much of them, not sure if it can happen nowadays :D

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2020-05-16 14:48 nesdori  
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 darkstoorm , better than setting them to impossible is to fix them. they are usually impossible because of time related compatibility issues between engines and fixing a birth time, cave time or magic wall milling time will usually do.  
  
i think that those external collections which are now built on older engine should be transferred to the engine but i's a lot of work. they are designed to be played with new engine -like engine anyway. those caves which are designed on this site during the old engine era should of course be left intact because they might assume old engine rules.  
  
there are now errors other than timer and fly collision related because of older engine limits. for example older engine uses default initial directions for flies and for that reason bd1 intermission1 on this site is broken because the butterfly is initially facing in the wrong direction. it's direction should be up instead of down so that it starts go around the entire cave intead of circling on a spot. it's a bad habit to store older boulder dash caves as a simple object map without directions because since bd1 the direction could have been anything. usually it's the default direction and bd1 int1 butterfly is the the only fly not facing in default direction in bd1. the initial status of objects can be "falling" or even have "scanned this frame" set so that the object won't be scanned during the first scan at all. i read that there actually are some caves which use "scanned this frame" objects as initial status to get a special effects on the beginning. maybe  Arno  or  dustin  knows about them? :) those caves would be impossible to properly set even with the new engine.

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2020-05-16 15:11 DarkStoorM  
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I understand now,  nesdori . In the beginning I was wondering what were the differences between the engines. I assume the new engine is the most accurate implementation of the BD specification. I was not sure if BD1 allowed you to touch firefly/butterfly, haven't played it for so long that I assumed that was a bug.  
  
I know you can place "falling" diamonds/boulders in GDash, so they create different patterns upon starting the cave and they also allow crush FFLY/BFLY instantly. Haven't seen such caves yet, though :D

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2020-05-16 15:16 DarkStoorM  
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crushing** :D  
  
Not sure yet if having more elements, such as falling \| would be okay, I don't know if  krissz  wants to keep this version as simple as possible, but I think just this one  would be enough.  
  
You would not need to create an empty space between FFly and a boulder to crush it at the start

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2020-05-16 15:39 nesdori  
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bd1 is actually very close to the later plck (construction kit) engine and  krissz 's new engine is close to the plck. all c64 bd engines since bd1 allow fly touches with rockford.  krissz 's old engine is the only exception. the reason for it simply is:  krissz  didn't know the exact behaviour of flies and rockford when he wrote the first engine. it wasn't designed to be so. initially the old engine has other oddities as well, the change of pushing a boulder was 1/8 instead of correct 1/4. once again it wasn't a design issue but  krissz  just guessed that 1/8 is correct. if you watch the very first demos on this site the boulders seem to strangely heavy. the reason is at that time 1/8 rule was active :) because  krissz 's old engine is "one of the kind" all other caves than designed on this site during old era should be played with the new engine.

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2020-05-16 15:57 DarkStoorM  
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Yes, that was a bit strange. I also noticed Rockford can "die twice" - crushed by the boulder and touching the fly, creating two explosions. Reproduced totally by accident, couldn't do that again.  
  
I agree it's "one of a kind", I could even say it's more hardcore since the interaction between the playerfly is difficult. I'm glad I found out about this version, because I don't have to work on my own anymore, mostly because this one also tells me which one is solved + it has online ranking, unlike GDash. I hope this site will be functioning for as long as possible, because this is exactly what I was looking for.

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2020-05-16 16:13 nesdori  
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 darkstoorm , yes the old engine can produce all kind of strange things because the scanning isn't done in a single pass but there are multiple scans. first other objects than flies are scanned, then fireflies are scanned, then butterflies and the final thing is to process explosions. so the old engine doesn't consume exploded objects like normal bd-behaviour IS but thinGS THAT GOT EXPLODED PREVIOUSLY DURING THE SCAN WILL ALSO EXPLODE THEMSELVES BECAUSE ALL OBJECTS ARE SCANNED BEFORE EXPLOSIONS. BECAUSE FIREFLIES GET TO ACT BEFORE BUTTERFLIES ALSO SWARMS OF FLIES ACT DIFFERENTLY TO THE NEW ENGINE (AND OTHER BD-ENGINES)

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2020-05-16 17:19 shredder  
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 darkstoorm , check out a nice old engine bug on the screenshot:  
<a href="https://ifotos.pl/zobacz/boulder1-_qsnhxqp.png" target="external">https://ifotos.pl/zobacz/boulder1-_qsnhxqp.png</a>

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2020-05-16 17:23 DarkStoorM  
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 shredder  I think I got it in the same place :D

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2020-05-16 17:28 shredder  
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good job ;D

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2020-05-16 21:12 krissz  
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I created the old (first) engine in november of 2011. I didn't know a lot about the original engine. I just start to implement what I remember from my younger age. I didn't think this is a so complex thing. I just wanted to collect some diamonds and I wanted to see how boulders falling. I made this game only for my brother (player Toth Attila) and for myself. We started to creating caves for each other. Was a big fun! That was a little bit heavy part of my life so I was very happy to play again with the Boulder Dash after my childhood. After several years and other players cames I realized the complexity of this game. That's why I created the new engine what is perfectly playable now I think. I don't want to change on it and I want to keep the simplicity of this game.

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2020-05-16 21:36 nesdori  
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 krissz , wow! i didn't know all that history about the first engine. is toth still sometimes here? i haven't seen him playing but does he log in sometimes to watch new caves and see how this site has been evolved?

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2020-05-16 21:59 krissz  
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Every year I tell him that the game is still exists and lots of player playing on the site. But usually he spends his time with sports nowdays. But I can imagine he will come back someday to create few caves. I would be very happy! :)

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2020-05-19 15:48 shredder  
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test passed ;)

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2020-05-19 15:51 DarkStoorM  
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Well, time to tryhard the cave today :D

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2020-05-19 16:01 shredder  
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good luck! :)

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2020-05-20 18:30 shredder  
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 darkstoorm , do you trying this one? or can i reveal my solution (not intended imo)? :)

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2020-05-20 18:45 DarkStoorM  
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I will try it in a bit. It will take some time though :D

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2020-05-20 18:59 shredder  
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all right, in that case i will hold solution as hidden ;)

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2020-05-20 20:22 DarkStoorM  
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I see the unintended 4th room solution, but the third one is pretty hard. Gonna try some more :D

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2020-05-20 20:57 shredder  
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so you almost got it! :) fingers crossed :D

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2020-05-20 21:28 DarkStoorM  
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Nope, I can't get through the third room. I can only get the specific combination in the editor, but in the full run it's too difficult for me :D

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2020-05-20 21:29 DarkStoorM  
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The only thing I can do is to go to the 4th room at the start and drop the second boulder to destroy the slime

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2020-05-20 22:08 shredder  
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try it this way: watch the fflies (there are few characteristic patterns), drop all heavy boulders by one rockford move and find the right frame to drop the boulder through the magic wall using  Arno 's technique (for inspiration see ' Arno  uber evil cave n','super experimental', or my best run of T-947).  
  
3rd room is hardest indeed, because 4th can be done just like you mentioned.

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2020-05-20 22:10 shredder  
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...for encouragement i can tell you that i found few different ways in 3rd room (in the editor)...

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2020-05-20 22:26 DarkStoorM  
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After some trial and error, I managed to learn the specific timed movement (assuming the 4th room is clear) <a href="https://i.imgur.com/9RlQmL4.gifv" target="external">https://i.imgur.com/9RlQmL4.gifv</a>  
  
but I can't replicate it in the run no matter what :D

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2020-05-20 22:48 shredder  
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ok you almost got it. now try to practice with 2 heavy boulders from second room and positioned ordinary boulder.

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2020-05-21 00:32 shredder  
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4th room also can be done without destroying the slime :)

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2020-05-21 00:46 DarkStoorM  
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Really? I'm out of ideas, too tricky for me :D

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2020-05-21 00:52 shredder  
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ok, so in that case my demo is free now :)   
you were so close! .... damn.... :////

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2020-05-21 00:53 shredder  
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maybe tommorow i will do a run without the slime termination ;)

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2020-05-21 00:57 DarkStoorM  
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I was actually close... Just need to time it properly :D

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2020-05-21 01:09 DarkStoorM  
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Tweaked, but doesn't count :D

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2020-05-21 01:12 shredder  
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it counts! great!

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2020-05-21 21:13 shredder  
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ok, my new run is visible. there is no slime termination ;)  
  
maybe i will try another run with free fall. we'll see.

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2020-05-21 21:45 DarkStoorM  
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If the free fall is possible, I'm done :D

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2020-05-21 22:09 shredder  
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probably it's possible, but i'm not sure. i will try, but maybe not now :)

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2020-05-22 13:53 trischi83  
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Freefall is hardcore!

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2020-05-22 14:09 trischi83  
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Wehre is  Arno ?  Arno  pennt!

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2020-05-22 16:11 shredder  
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it's true, but if it works, it will looks f...ng awesome ;)

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2020-05-22 16:19 trischi83  
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Thx for solving  shredder , the previous Version was solvable too;)

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2020-05-22 16:19 nesdori  
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i will try that too but lots of syncing to do :)

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2020-05-22 16:20 nesdori  
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 trischi , the previous version was impossible but this version is nice :)

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2020-05-22 16:34 trischi83  
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 nesdori ..At the same Time... 16:19?!

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2020-05-22 16:34 trischi83  
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Irgendetwas stinkt doch hier gewaltig zum himmel

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2020-05-22 16:40 nesdori  
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 trischi , my 16:19 comment was about freerall solution that i'll try that too.. after sending that i saw your other comment or what do you mean?

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2020-05-22 16:57 nesdori  
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i was able to freefall already all but the last room; quite easy so far but syncing the last one might be troublesome.. :)

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2020-05-22 18:04 nesdori  
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got it! my free fall solution visible. i had to wait 36 secs before letting the diamond to fall. probably there are much faster solutions :) i reaLLY DIDN'T USE MUCH TIME FOR TRYING DIFFERENT HEAVY BOULDER TIMINGS BECUASE THERE ARE SO MANY PASSABLE PATTERNS. I JUST TRIED FEW AND THEN I TRIED TO SYNC THEM.  
  
 trischi , so free fall was your intended solution?

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2020-05-22 18:17 nesdori  
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 shredder , TOO BAD THAT THE FREE FALL WAS SO FAST THAT ROCKFORD COULDN'T RUN beside it. you have to use the camera option to see the fall entirely :)

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2020-05-22 18:38 shredder  
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grats  nesdori  :) awesome solution! :)

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2020-05-22 18:45 nesdori  
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 shredder : thanks, it was easier than i thought. now that i think of it; i should have stayed on the top of the cave so that it would have been visible when the boulder falls through the last room.. :)

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2020-05-22 19:23 shredder  
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probably v-open border is for that reason :)   
but manual cam do the job anyway ;)

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2020-05-22 20:57 trischi83  
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Yup  shredder , freefall was my First idea;)

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2020-05-22 22:45 shredder  
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nasty idea ;) btw. can't wait for another ultra cave  ;)

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2020-05-23 00:01 trischi83  
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Hmmm ...This cave must than tested by me!

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2020-05-23 02:16 shredder  
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also i can test it if you're still on the smartphone ;)