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2019-10-17 19:38 Arno  
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revision of the bottom section, should this time be without creator-bias...! :-)

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2019-10-17 21:01 shredder  
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this time no fscs :) i'll try my run after 22 ;)

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2019-10-17 22:09 Arno  
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phew... great! ;-)  
  
and... another crazy cave in progress, to be released tomorrow! :-D

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2019-10-17 22:29 shredder  
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this is awesome!   
I would like to have some more ideas for new caves :) im searching for inspiration ;) lookin forward for the new one from your garage ;)  
ok, now it's time to solve this cave! :D

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2019-10-17 22:48 shredder  
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ok got it :)

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2019-10-17 22:49 shredder  
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my run without the top growing wall usage :)

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2019-10-17 23:09 nesdori  
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 shredder , how did you find the launch so quickly? i did try few things but no success. probably the launch is so simple that i just overlooked it :)

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2019-10-17 23:26 shredder  
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 nesdori , as you probably know, most formations are based on the vortex. i did few tries in the ckit and found a right way: started with vortex from 2 fflies and try to set free the 3 fflies from above.   
after some tries the formation was set correctly ;)

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2019-10-17 23:34 shredder  
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oh, and setting the vortex right is the key. sometimes when the right moment is missed, the formation will not begins :(

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2019-10-17 23:36 nesdori  
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yes, i tried that and bombarded a vortex with 3 other flies but didn't succeed to launch. it actually looks like that 5F going down can be also constructed from 3f going right bombarded with 2 flies but i'm not entirely sure if it's possible. i gave up trying it because i realized it's most probably not the intended way.

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2019-10-17 23:50 shredder  
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your idea of creating "on the fly" formation is fantastic! i'll try to figure it out in the ckit. very interesting! :)   
  
i think that you were close, but the problem was in the moment of creating vortex. or maybe wrong path of the 3 fflies. up-right ff in the vortex must have one spot of dirt on the right side next to 3 ffs. top piece of dirt holding the 3 ffs must be removed when the flies are going down.

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2019-10-17 23:57 nesdori  
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i tested both timings for each 3-fly path, there's of course only two timings to test because vortex only has two phases. i think the problem was dirt, i probably missed proper dirt formation around the vortex although i might have tried correct path for flies.

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2019-10-18 00:01 shredder  
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the right path of the 3 ffs is to approach on the vortex's up-right corner, and slide on top on the vortex, creating required formation :)

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2019-10-18 00:06 shredder  
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ofcourse one spot of dirt between vortex and 3 ffs.

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2019-10-18 08:16 Arno  
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the launch-method in my run is indeed vortex-based, but still a bit unusual in the following way.  
  
fright-3/4/5 and crawling-f4 can all be launched by sliding 1 or more fireflies along the vortex at a certain side. but the timing w.r.t. the vortex' 2 stages is opposite between the fright-set and crawling-f4.  
  
the sinking-f5 formation is basically crawling-f4 plus an additional firefly, the "sneaky single", which breaks into the vortex like fright-3. in other words, this formation combines the timing of the fright-set and crawling-f4. that's why sliding 3 fflies along the vortex won't work.  
  
in my solution, the 3 fflies are not sliding along the vortex, but rather moving through the vortex. they approach from the right and enter the vortex at the top-right corner of the 2x2 square.  
  
 shredder : based on your description, i think you apply the same approach.  
  
i read about the idea to let two formations collide to form a bigger formation. great idea! I am currently testing all possible ways to let a formation clash with a spinning fly (or vortex). this gives some interesting effects, like extended formations. my new cave (released tonight) will showcase some of these funny effects! :-)

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2019-10-18 09:41 dustin  
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i watched a sinking f5 in slow-motion and one can clearly see the vortex that is disturbed by one fly at the upper-right corner and two flies at the lower-left! as both happens simultaneousely, the moving direction appears /to be right {fright-3} + down-left {crawling f4} = down! i only wonder where the additional phase comes from, as sinking f5 has 8 phases, one more than fright-3 or crawling f4.

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2019-10-18 10:15 Arno  
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out of the 8 phases, only 5 show a fright-3 and crawling-f4 around the same vortex. when the "sneaky single" breaks in at the top-right corner (like fright-3) the fly that is kicked out at the left distorts the "walking pair" of flies that would normally break in like crawling-f4. instead, this fly forms a vortex with one walking partners, while the other one takes over the role of the sneaky single. all this takes 3 additional frames, which makes 8 in total.  
more details in next article. :-)

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2019-10-18 10:37 nesdori  
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great analysis and work again,  Arno ! peter liepa probably never realized what an interesting world he created. he just tried to keep the scanning rules simple so that old computers can scan a whole cave fast enough :) but simple rules often result in most interesting games.. like a game of go (a board game)

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2019-10-18 11:11 shredder  
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ok. i did few tries in ckit. i can see that coliding f-3 with F&f can result with f-4 or c-4 so far :)

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2019-10-18 21:09 Arno  
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demo tomorrow! :-)

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2019-10-18 23:19 shredder  
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can't wait! :D if you enclosed fflies with 3 growing walls, i suspect a very precise move avoiding the explosion from one ffly :)   
i've chosen easier solution with only 2 walls :)

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2019-10-19 09:46 Arno  
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free now! :-)  
  
i didn't intend to make the growing-wall step really tricky, but i'd like to see your way with 2 walls! :-D

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2019-10-19 11:34 shredder  
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ok nvm :D when i start trying, just remove too much dirt for use 3 walls ;)

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2019-10-19 12:10 Arno  
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oh, a launch-method with sliding flies is possible! i thought there was a timing problem, but perhaps this solves itself during the transformation. i'll have to dig it out... thanks! :-)

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2019-10-19 15:52 shredder  
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yes, thats exactly what i meant :)